THE RECORD.

THE DEPUTY CLERK: DEFENDANTS' EXHIBITS NO. 1 AND NO. 2 MARKED FOR IDENTIFICATION.

THE COURT: AND WITHOUT OBJECTION, THEY ARE RECEIVED.

THE DEPUTY CLERK: THEY ARE MARKED INTO EVIDENCE AS DEFENDANTS' EXHIBITS 1 AND 2.

(DEFENDANTS' EXHIBITS 1 AND 2 RECEIVED IN EVIDENCE, RESPECTIVELY.)

MR. GRABER: YOUR HONOR, AS SOON AS THEY ARE MARKED, I W I LL I DENTIFY FOR THE RECORD WHAT THEY ARE.

THE COURT: SURELY. WELL, THEY WILL SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES. YOU DON 'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING MORE. JUST FILE THAT, AND LET'S GO.

MR. GRABER: FINE. INK . YOUR HONOR, I WOULD CALL MR. DORROUGH TO THE STAND FIRST.

THE COURT: VERY WELL.

WHEREUPON, UPON, ROBERT ALLEN DORROUGH WAS CALLED AS A WITNESS, AND, HAVING BEEN FIRST DULY SWORN, WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:

DI RECT EXAMINATION -- BY MR. GRABER:

Q. WOULD YOU PLEASE STATE YOUR NAME FOR THE RECORD, SPELL ING YOUR LAST NAME?

A. ROBERT ALLEN DORROUGH, D-O-R-R-O-U-G-H

Q. ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH THE DEFENDANT IN THIS CASE, MR. WILLIAM THOMAS?

A. YES, I AM.

Q. AND DID YOU TESTIFY PREVIOUSLY IN A CASE ON OCTOBER 21, 1983, INVOLVING THIS DEFENDANT?

A. YES, I DID.

Q. NOW, DO YOU RECALL IN THAT HEARING TESTIFYING WITH RESPECT TO INCIDENTS BETWEEN THE POLICE AND MR. THOMAS REGARDING MR. THOMAS’ ATTEMPT TO MAINTAIN A CONSTANT PRESENCE IN THE AREA OF THE WHITE HOUSE?

A. THOSE THAT I COULD RECALL, YES.

Q. DRAWING YOUR ATTENTION TO THE AREA OF LAFAYETTE PARK AS OPPOSED TO THE WHITE HOUSE SIDEWALK, COULD YOU TESTIFY TODAY ABOUT INSTANCES THAT YOU HAVE OBSERVED WITH RESPECT TO THE PARK POLICE ENFORCEMENT OF THE CAMPING REGULATIONS, AS THEY HAVE APPLIED THEM TO MR. THOMAS?

A. WELL, I, MYSELF, HAVE SLEPT IN LAFAYETTE PARK, AND I HAVE SLEPT IN A SLEEPING BAG, NOT AS PART OF THE DEMONSTRATION BUT FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS I WAS SLEEPING IN LAFAYETTE PARK.

I HAVE NEVER BEEN ARRESTED FOR CAMPING. THERE HAVE BEEN PARK POLICE OFFICERS WHO TOLD ME TO GET UP AND GO SOMEWHERE ELSE. THEY ALWAYS SAID, "WELL, I'LL BE BACK, AND WHEN I COME BACK, IF YOU ARE STILL HERE, YOU'LL BE ARRESTED."

I GENERALLY JUST ROLLED OVER AND WENT BACK TO SLEEP, AND I NEVER LEFT, AND I HAVE NEVER BEEN ARRESTED.

Q. DURING ANY OF THOSE OCCASIONS, DID YOU HAVE ANY PERSONAL BELONGINGS WITH YOU?

A. SURE. A GROUND CLOTH, A SLEEPING BAG, MY -- MY NOTES, A FEW BOOKS, A TOOTHBRUSH, TOOTHPASTE, THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

Q. BASED ON YOUR OBSERVATIONS AND EXPERIENCE, HAVE YOU NOTICED ANY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE WAY THE PARK POLICE HAVE TREATED YOU IN LAFAYETTE PARK AND THE WAY THEY HAVE TREATED MR. THOMAS?

I AM JUST TALKING ABOUT THE CAMPING REGULATION NOW, AND NOT ANY OTHER POSSIBLE INCIDENTS.

A. WELL, THE FIRST, AND MOST, OBVIOUS THING WOULD BE THAT HE HAS BEEN ARRESTED FOR CAMPING, AND I HAVE NOT. THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE SLEPT IN LAFAYETTE PARK AND HAVEN'T BEEN ARRESTED FOR CAMPING.

DURING THE SUMMER MONTHS THERE ARE A NUMBER OF STREET PEOPLE THAT USE THE BENCHES IN LAFAYETTE PARK TO SLEEP.

DURING THE DEMONSTRATIONS AROUND JULY 4TH, THERE WERE MANY PEOPLE THAT SLEPT OVERNIGHT IN LAFAYETTE PARK.

COULD YOU REPEAT THE QUESTION?

THE COURT: I BELIEVE YOU HAVE ANSWERED IT.

MR. GRABER: EXCUSE ME, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: I THOUGHT HE HAD ANSWERED IT; HAD HE NOT?

BY MR. GRABER:

Q. WELL, I AM DIRECTlNG YOUR ATTENTION TO YOUR OBSERVATIONS WITH RESPECT TO HOW THE PARK POLICE HAVE ENFORCED THE CAMPING REGULATIONS AGAINST MR. THOMAS. WHAT HAVE YOU OBSERVED WITH RESPECT TO HOW THE PARK POLICE TREAT MR. THOMAS, REGARDING CAMPING IN LAFAYETTE PARK?

A. I THINK I HAVE ALREADY STATED: HE IS ARRESTED, AND A GREAT NUMBER OF STREET PEOPLE SLEEP IN THE PARK, AND THEY ARE NOT ARRESTED.

Q. ASIDE FROM ACTUAL ARRESTS, WHAT PHYSICAL --

A. OH.

Q. (CONTINUING) -- BEHAVIOR DO THE PARK POLICE DEMONSTRATE THAT IS DIFFERENT, IF IT IS DIFFERENT? IF IT IS NOT, YOU MAY SAY THAT, AS WELL. BUT TO THE EXTENT THAT THE PARK POLICE BEHAVIOR IS DIFFERENT IS WHAT I AM ASKING NOW, AS IT IS APPLIED TO MR. THOMAS

A. IT SEEMS TO ME --

Q. (CONTINUING) -- VERSUS OTHERS?

A. IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE SCRUTINY OF THE PARK POLICE SEEMS TO BE MUCH MORE SEVERE ON MR. THOMAS THAN ON --

THE COURT: THAT IS A GENERAL STATEMENT.

THE WITNESS: WELL -

MR. GRABER: I UNDERSTAND. I WILL TRY TO GET HIM TO BE SPECIFIC.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

BY MR. GRABER:

Q. ON WHAT DO YOU BASE THAT? WHAT SPECIFIC OBSERVATION HAVE YOU SEEN UPON WHICH YOU ARE MAKING THIS CONCLUSION?

A. NOT ALL PARK POLICE OFFICERS HAVE DONE IT, AND I CAN'T REALLY NAME THOSE THAT HAVE. BUT THERE HAVE BEEN PARK POLICE OFFICIALS THAT WOULD COME BY AND ASK MR. THOMAS IF HE WERE AWAKE. IF HE WERE LYING DOWN, THEY'D SAY: "ARE YOU AWAKE? ARE YOU AWAKE?"

AND MR. THOMAS WOULD LOOK AT THEM AND SAY, "YES, I'M AWAKE."

THEY WOULD KICK HIM IN THE SHOES -- WELL, KICK HIM IN THE FEET. AND THERE HAVE BEEN PARK POLICE CRUISERS TO STOP IN FRONT OF THE SIGNS AND SHINE THEIR LIGHT, THEIR LITTLE SPOT LIGHT THAT THEY HAVE AT THE SIDE WINDOW, AND SHINE THE LIGHT ON MR. THOMAS.

Q. WITH WHAT FREQUENCY HAVE YOU OBSERVED ACTIVITIES LIKE THAT OCCUR: RARELY, OFTEN?

A. WELL, TO MY KNOWLEDGE, IT HAS HAPPENED THREE TIMES THAT I HAVE WITNESSED IT. SO FAR AS THE FREQUENCY OF IT, WHETHER IT HAPPENS ONCE A WEEK OR NOT, I REALLY COULDN'T TELL YOU.

Q. NOW, DID THERE COME A TIME WHEN YOU CEASED MAINTAINING 24-HOUR PRESENCE AT THE WHITE HOUSE?

A. YES.

Q. WHEN WAS THAT?

A. IT WAS IN JUNE OR JULY.

Q. AND HOW LONG HAD IT BEEN THAT YOU HAD BEEN THERE AND OBSERVING THE ACTIVITIES YOU TESTIFIED TO TODAY? WHAT PERIOD OF TIME ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

A. WELL, THE PERIOD THAT I STOPPED MAINTAINING THE 24-HOUR VIGIL OR THE PERIOD OF TIME THAT I -- THERE ARE TWO DIFFERENT PERIODS OF TIME IN THAT QUESTION.

Q. WHEN DID YOU FIRST START YOUR PRESENCE IN THE AREA WHERE MR. THOMAS WAS ALSO MAINTAINING HIS PRESENCE?

A. WELL, I AM A FREQUENT VISITOR OF THE LAFAYETTE PARK FROM MARCH UNTIL JULY, I WAS MAINTAINING PRETTY CLOSE TO A 24-HOUR VIGIL, EXCEPT I WOULD GO AWAY FOR A FEW HOURS NOW AND THEN.

Q. SO YOUR TESTIMONY IS LIMITED TO THE PERIOD BETWEEN MARCH AND JULY OF 1983?

A. NO. NO. THAT IS JUST THE PERIOD OF TIME THAT I MAINTAINED THE 24-HOUR VIGIL. THERE WERE OCCASIONS WHEN THOMAS AND THE SIGNS HAD BEEN MOVED ACROSS THE STREET THAT I AM TESTIFYING TO NOW, AND THAT IS AFTER JULY.

Q. I SEE. YOU ARE SAYING THAT THE LOCATION OF MR. THOMAS PROTEST CHANGED AT SOME POINT?

A. OH, YES. YES.

Q. AND THAT WAS WHEN?

A. WELL, WHEN REGULATIONS WERE PROMULGATED AND PASSED AND STARTED TO BE ENFORCED, THE JUNE 17TH REGULATIONS.

Q. WHERE DID MR. THOMAS -- WHERE WAS HE, AND WHERE DID HE MOVE TO, AT THAT POINT IN TIME?

A. WELL, HE WAS IN FRONT OF THE WHITE HOUSE, ON THE WHITE HOUSE SIDEWALK. AND, THEN, WHEN THE REGULATIONS WERE ENFORCIBLE AFTER JUDGE BRYANT HAD LIFTED THE TEMPORARY RESTRAINING ORDER ON THE REGULATIONS, THE SIGNS AND MR. THOMAS, THE

INDIVIDUAL, HAD MOVED ACROSS THE STREET TO LAFAYETTE PARK.

Q. ALL RIGHT. I HAVE NO MORE QUESTIONS. THANK YOU.

THE COURT: MR. WOLL?

CROSS-EXAMINATION -- BY MR. WOLL:

Q. MR. DORROUGH, DO YOU KNOW CONCEPCION PICCIOTTO?

A. YES, I DO.

Q. AND HOW LONG HAVE YOU KNOWN HER?

A. SINCE MARCH 5, 1983.

Q. AND THAT IS WHEN YOU BEGAN WHAT YOU INDICATED WAS THIS PERIOD OF ALMOST A 24-HOUR VIGIL IN FRONT OF THE WHITE HOUSE; IS THAT CORRECT?

A. YES, SIR.

Q. AND WITH WHAT FREQUENCY DID YOU SEE HER DURING THIS PERIOD OF TIME THAT YOU WERE MAINTAINING THIS VIGIL?

A. EVERY DAY.

Q. NOW, WOULD YOU SEE HER IN CONNECTION WITH MR. THOMAS

A. YES.

Q. AND, IF SO, COULD YOU EXPLAIN HOW THEY RELATED TO EACH OTHER? I MEAN WERE THEY MOSTLY TOGETHER, OR IF YOU COULD EXPLAIN THAT TO THE COURT?

A. YES. THEY ARE TOGETHER FOR A NUMBER OF REASONS, WELL, CONNIE -- CONNIE -- SHE -- SHE REALLY LOVES THOMAS, AND SHE TAKES CARE OF HIM, WELL, ALMOST TOO WELL, LIKE HE IS A CHILD SOMETIMES.

Q. WAS IT YOUR IMPRESSION THAT THEY WERE PROTESTING TOGETHER?

A. OH, YES, OF COURSE. THEY ARE BOTH PROTESTING IN THE SAME MANNER.

Q. AND THEY WERE SUPPORTING EACH OTHER, SO FAR AS CONDUCT THE PROTEST?

A. YES. YES.

Q. AND THEY WERE ALMOST CONSTANTLY TOGETHER; IS THAT CORRECT?

A. THAT'S CORRECT. YES, SIR.

Q. SO YOUR TESTIMONY CONCERNING THE HARASSMENT THAT YOU SAW THE POLICE DIRECT TOWARD MR. THOMAS, WOULD THAT ALSO BE DIRECTED AT THE SAME TIME TOWARD MRS. PICCIOTTO?

A. YES, IT WOULD.

Q. AND WHAT DID YOU OBSERVE, IN REFERENCE TO MRS. PICCIOTTO, SO FAR AS ANY POLICE HARASSMENT OR CONFRONTATION?

A. WELL, THE SAME SORT OF -- THE EXACT SAME SORT OF ARASSMENT THAT THOMAS GETS, CONNIE GETS. THEY ASK HER IF HE IS AWAKE. THEY -- WELL, I HAVEN'T EVER SEEN THE POLICE KICK MISS PICCIOTTO, BUT SHE GETS VERBALLY AROUSED.

Q. BY THE POLICE?

A. YES.

Q. AND THIS IS ALSO WHEN MR. THOMAS IS ALSO AROUSED BY THE POLICE; IS THAT CORRECT ?

A YE S.

Q. NOW YOU MENTIONED SOMETHING ABOUT SEARCHLIGHTS OR SPOTLIG HTS FROM POLICE VEHICLE S?

A. YES. USUALLY -- THIS IS REALLY SOMETHING. CONNIE IS A VERY, VERY STRONG WOMAN.

Q. NOW, WHEN YOU SAY CONNIE, YOU ARE REFERRING TO MISS PICCIOTTO ?

A. CONCEPCION, YES. RIGHT.

Q. ALL RIGHT

A. MADAM PICCI OTTO.

Q. OK AY.

A.SHE IS A VERY, VERY STRONG WOMAN. WHEN THOMAS GOES TO SLEEP, IF HE GOES TO

SLEEP, CONNIE WILL STAY AWAKE AND THERE WAS A PERIOD THAT I HAD OBSERVED WHEN SHE WOULD ALWAYS TELL HIM ‘GET SOME REST. YOU NEED YOUR REST." AND THEN SHE WOULD STAY UP ALL NIGHT LONG. SHE WOULD DRINK A LOT OF COFFEE. SHE WOULD HAVE

THERMOSES OF COFFEE AND BE DRINKING COFFEE TO KEEP AWAKE BUT SHE WOULD KEEP TELLING THOMAS TO GO TO SLEEP, AND THEN SHE WOULD STAY AWAKE ALL THE NEXT DAY

AND IT WAS THE LONGEST PERIOD OF TIME WHEN I DIDN'T EVEN SEE HER HARDLY BLINK HER EYES TO GO TO SLEEP BECAUSE OF THE FEAR OF BEING ARRESTED

Q. YOU MENTIONED PERIOD OF TIME. COULD YOU TELL US WHAT PERIOD OF TIME THIS WAS?

A. OH, WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT SHE ALMOST DIDN'T SLEEP FOR A WHOLE WEEK STRAIGHT, AND I DID NOT SEE HER GO TO SLEEP. BUT, TOWARD THE END OF THE WEEK, SHE WAS VERY, VERY, VERY GROGGY.

Q. WELL, I AM TRYING TO PINPOINT WHAT TIME OF THE YEAR WAS THIS?

A. OH, THIS WAS -- THIS WAS ABOUT -- IT WAS SOMETIME IN APRIL.

Q. WELL, DID YOU MAKE ANY FURTHER OBSERVATIONS IN THIS REGARD PAST APRIL?

A. OH, YES. SHE STILL STAYS AWAKE WHEN THOMAS GOES TO SLEEP. IF SHE GOES TO SLEEP, I KNOW THAT SHE IS AT THE POINT OF EXHAUSTION, BECAUSE SHE IS A VERY STRONG WOMAN.

Q. LET ME ASK YOU THIS. YOU INDICATED THAT THERE WAS SOME POINT IN JULY WHEN MR. THOMAS WENT FROM IN FRONT OF THE WHITE HOUSE TO OVER ACROSS THE STREET TO LAFAYETTE PARK. IS THAT CORRECT?

A. YES.

Q. I BELIEVE YOU SAID IN JULY. IS THAT CORRECT?

A. WELL, I THINK THAT IS WHEN THE REGULATIONS STARTED BEING ENFORCED.

Q. DID MRS. PICCIOTTO THEN GO WITH HIM ACROSS THE STREET AND DEMONSTRATE IN LAFAYETTE PARK WHEN HE DID THAT?

A. YES. AS A COUPLE, THEY ARE ONE DEMONSTRATION. THEY ACT AS ONE DEMONSTRATING ENTITY. THEY ARE ONE AND THE SAME DEMONSTRATION.

Q. OKAY. AND YOU HAVE MADE FURTHER OBSERVATIONS, HAVE YOU, SINCE THEY MOVED FROM THE WHITE HOUSE ACROSS THE STREET OVER TO LAFAYETTE PARK?

A. YES, I HAVE.

Q. GOING UP TO THE PRESENT TIME, RIGHT NOW, TODAY?

A. YES. YES, I HAVE.

Q. WITH THE SAME FREQUENCY, OR WITH LESS FREQUENCY?

A. WELL, I AM NOT THERE DURING THE DAY, AND I DON'T SLEEP IN AND AROUND LAFAYETTE PARK. BUT I AM THERE -- WHEN I GET OFF OF WORK, I COME AND VISIT AND SEE WHAT'S HAPPENED IN THE DAY AND MAKE SURE THEY ARE STILL THERE. AND I SEE THE POLICE THERE ABOUT ALL THE TIME.

THEY HAVE DOUBLED THE SECURITY, I GUESS, BECAUSE THERE USED TO BE ONE -- WELL, IN THE BEGINNING, MARCH, APRIL, MAY, THERE WASN'T ONE PARK POLICE PATROL OFFICER THAT WAS STATIONED IN LAFAYETTE PARK.

THEN, IN JULY, I'D SAY, THEY STATIONED ONE IN THE GUARD SHACK ALL THE TIME, AND NOW THERE ARE TWO THERE 24 HOURS.

Q. WELL, MR. DORROUGH YOU INDICATED THAT THERE WAS A PERIOD OF TIME, THOUGH, AFTER JULY, THAT YOU WERE SLEEPING IN LAFAYETTE PARK?

A. YES. YES.

Q. UP TO WHAT PERIOD OF TIME WAS THIS THAT YOU WERE SLEEPING IN LAFAYETTE PARK?

A. WELL, I WOULD SAY AUGUST. THAT IS WHEN I MOVED IN WITH MY GIRLFRIEND.

Q. SO YOU LEFT LAFAYETTE PARK, OR YOU WERE NOT SLEEPING IN LAFAYETTE PARK OVERNIGHT, SOMETIME IN AUGUST; IS THAT CORRECT, SIR?

A. YES.

Q. ALL RIGHT.

A. WELL, SOMETIMES BECAUSE -- SOMETIMES IT WOULD -- IT WOULD MAKE ME FEEL A LITTLE BIT GUILTY THAT I WOULD BE LEAVING THEM THERE, BUT THEY WERE THERE BEFORE I GOT THERE, AND THEY WILL PROBABLY BE THERE WHEN I AM GONE.

Q. WELL, LET ME ASK YOU SPECIFICALLY: NOW, THIS POLICE HARASSMENT THAT YOU HAVE TESTIFIED ABOUT CONCERNING THE KICKING OF MR. THOMAS' FEET AND WAKING BOTH HIM AND MRS. PICCIOTTO UP, WHAT PERIOD OF TIME ARE WE TALKING ABOUT, SO FAR AS THE LATEST TIME THAT YOU HAVE MADE THESE OBSERVATIONS? WOULD THIS HAVE BEEN IN JULY AND AUGUST, OR WHEN?

A. THE MOST RECENT TIME?

Q. YES.

A. THE MOST RECENT TIME? WAS IN OCTOBER. THERE WERE THREE PARK POLICE CRUISERS, AND ONE OF THEM WAS SHINING HIS SPOTLIGHT.

I WAS SITTING AT THE SIGNS JUST THE OTHER NIGHT, AND A PARK POLICE OFFICER CAME AND SHINED HIS SPOTLIGHT ON THE SIGNS. NOBODY WAS SLEEPING. WE WIRE JUST SITTING THERE, TALKING. YOU KNOW, THERE WERE -- I DON'T KNOW. I SUPPOSE THAT IS HARASSMENT THE PARK POLICE WOULD SAY: NO, THAT IS NOT HARASSMENT. THEY ARE JUST DOING THEIR JOB.

Q. ALL RIGHT.

MR. WOLL: I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS, YOUR HONOR. THANK YOU.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. MR. SHMANDA.

MR. SHMANDA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

CROSS-EXAMINATION -- BY MR. SHMANDA:

Q. THESE LAST FEW OCCASIONS YOU MENTIONED, SIR, WHERE YOU SAY YOU HAVE BEEN IN THE VICINITY OF THE LAFAYETTE PARK SIDEWALK WHERE THE POLICE HAVE SHOWN THEIR LIGHTS AT THE SIGNS IN AND AROUND WHERE MR. THOMAS OR MISS PICCIOTTO WERE, WHAT TIME OF THE DAY OR NIGHT WAS THAT?

A. THE LAST CASE THAT I MENTIONED?

Q. YES.

A. IT WAS THE NIGHT BEFORE LAST AT APPROXIMATELY -- IT WAS APPROXIMATELY 10:00 O'CLOCK.

Q. IT WAS 10:00 O'CLOCK?

A. YES.

Q. AND FOR HOW LONG WAS THE LIGHT SHOWN, OR SHINED, GUESS I SHOULD SAY?

A. OH, I DON'T KNOW. A PERIOD OF 15 OR 20 SECONDS.

Q. IS THAT ALL THAT YOU SAW OCCUR?

A. OH, YES. THE NIGHT BEFORE LAST, YES.

Q. AND LET ME ASK YOU THIS, SIR. I, LIKE YOUR COUNSEL, NEED TO BE MINDFUL OF DATES. DO I UNDERSTAND THAT THE LAST TIME YOU ACTUALLY WERE SLEEPING IN THE SIDEWALK AND/OR PARK AREA OF LAFAYETTE PARK WAS IN AUGUST OF THIS YEAR?

A. YES.

Q. ALL RIGHT. OKAY.

YOU WERE NOT SLEEPING IN LAFAYETTE PARK IN SEPTEMBER, DEFINITELY?

A. NO, I COULDN'T SAY DEFINITELY. I MIGHT HAVE SPENT THE NIGHT THERE A COUPLE OF TIMES IN SEPTEMBER. I DON'T KNOW.

Q. SO THE PERIOD THAT YOU WERE SLEEPING IN LAFAYETTE PARK WAS PROBABLY FROM JUNE THROUGH AUGUST OF 1983?

A. DURING THE NIGHT, YES.

Q. YES, THAT IS WHAT I MEAN, SLEEPING DURING THE EVENING.

A. YES.

Q. AND THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN, BASICALLY, SIR, AFTER THE RULE CHANGED AND EVERYBODY WHO WANTED TO CAME ACROSS THE STREET WAS THAT ABOUT WHEN YOU WOULD START SLEEPING IN THE PARK, OR HAD YOU BEEN SLEEPING THERE BEFORE THE RULE CHANGED?

A. I HAD BEEN SLEEPING THERE BEFORE THE RULE CHANGED, TOO.

Q. BEFORE. ALL RIGHT.

NOW, IS IT YOUR TESTIMONY, SIR, THAT YOU HAVE SEEN OTHER INDIVIDUALS SLEEPING IN LAFAYETTE PARK AS LATE AS JUNE OF 1983, WITHOUT ANY INTERFERENCE BY THE POLICE?

A. YES, IN JULY AND -- RIGHT NOW IT IS TOO COLD TO SLEEP OUT IN THE PARK.

Q. I UNDERSTAND. BUT LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PERIOD THAT YOU CAN TELL US ABOUT, WHICH WOULD BE, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, JUNE, JULY AND AUGUST?

A. WELL, RIGHT AROUND JULY 4TH, THERE WERE QUITE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE.

Q. YOU MENTIONED THAT.

A. RIGHT.

Q. OKAY.

A. THERE WERE MANY, MANY PEOPLE THAT SLEPT IN THE PARK

Q. OKAY. LET'S FOCUS ON THAT.

A. DO YOU WANT AN APPROXIMATE NUMBER?

Q. LET'S FOCUS ON THAT. YOU SAW THESE PEOPLE, THESE MANY STREET PEOPLE, AS YOU REFERRED TO THEM, SLEEPING IN LAFAYETTE PARK?

A. BOTH STREET PEOPLE AND TOURISTS.

Q. AND TOURISTS.

A. YES.

Q. WITHOUT ANY POLICE HARASSMENT OR INTERFERENCE OR CHALLENGE?

A. ON SOME NIGHTS, YES.

Q. ALL RIGHT. LET'S TALK ABOUT -- WELL, WE WILL TALK ABOUT ALL THE NIGHTS NOW.

DURING THE SAME PERIOD OF TIME WHEN YOU WERE MAKING THESE OBSERVATIONS ABOUT THOSE PEOPLE, DID YOU EVER SEE MR. THEOMAS GET ARRESTED FOR SLEEPING?

A. NO.

Q. WAS HE THERE, SLEEPING IN THE PARK, DURING THESE PERIODS OF TIME THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT?

A. YES.

Q. SO THERE WAS NO DISTINCTION THAT YOU SAW THEN BETWEEN MR. THOMAS AND THE OTHER INDIVIDUALS WHO WERE SLEEPING IN THE PARK, IN TERMS OF POLICE ACTION?

A. IN TERMS OF POLICE ACTION, NO.

Q. I SHOULD SAY, I GUESS, POLICE ARREST ACTION. YOU SAW NO DISTINCTION?

THE COURT: HE HAS ANSWERED THE QUESTION, COUNSEL.

MR. SHMANDA: I AM SORRY, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT.

MR. SHMANDA: I AM SORRY.

BY MR. SHMANDA:

Q. ALL RIGHT. NOW, WHEN DID YOU SEE THIS KICKING OF THOMAS?

A. I HAVE SEEN THAT ON MANY OCCASIONS. I HAVE SEEN --WELL, I HAVE SEEN MR. THOMAS KICKED IN THE HEAD BY THE POLICE.

Q. . CAN YOU GIVE ME THE NAMES, PLEASE, OF ANY POLICE OFFICERS YOU EVER SAW LAY A HAND ON MR. THOMAS?

A. OFFICER SHERBER, FOR ONE.

Q. HOW DO YOU SPELL IT?

A. S-H-E-R-B-E-R. I GUESS THAT'S THE WAY IT IS SPELLED, OFFICER SHERBER.

Q. SHERBER?

A. YES.

Q. ALL RIGHT.

A. I HAVE IT WRITTEN DOWN. I'VE GOT THREE OFFICERS' NAMES WRITTEN DOWN ON MY PAD, AND IT IS SITTING RIGHT OVER THERE. COULD I GO GET IT?

MR. SHMANDA: MAY HE GET IT, YOUR HONOR?

THE COURT: IT IS UP TO YOU.

MR. SHMANDA: I THINK SO, YES. HE MENTIONED THIS SERIOUS ALLEGATION. I WOULD L IKE TO HAVE THE NAMES. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

THE WITNESS: IT WAS JULY 1ST WHEN OFFICER SHERBER OF THE PARK POLICE ICE WAS KICKING THOMAS IN THE HEAD.

BY MR. SHMANDA:

Q. AND WHAT TIME WOULD THAT BE?

A. 2:50 A. M.

Q. 2:50 A. M.?

A. RIGHT.

Q. OKAY. THANK YOU, SIR. ANY OTHER INCIDENTS OF THAT NATURE?

THE COURT: HE IS GOING TO GIVE YOU TWO NAMES, HE SAID.

MR. SHMANDA: YES, TWO MORE.

THE WITNESS: I WILL HAVE TO FIND THEM. I KNOW THEY ARE IN HERE SOMEWHERE.

BY MR. SHMANDA:

Q. OKAY.

A. ON JUNE 30TH --

Q. YES.

A. (CONTINUING) -- ON JUNE 30TH, OFFICER GERTOFF --

THE COURT: SPELL THAT.

THE WITNESS: G-E-R-T-O-F-F.

BY MR. SHMANDA:

Q. YES, SIR.

A. (CONTINUING) -- BETWEEN THE HOURS OF 12:00 MIDNIGHT AND 6:00 A. M. CAME BY, AND THERE WERE 15 OCCASIONS --

THE COURT: HOW MANY?

THE WITNESS: FIFTEEN OCCASIONS IN THAT TIME PERIOD THAT I SAT THERE AND COUNTED THAT MR. THOMAS WAS ASKED IF HE WERE AWAKE, PHYSICALLY, OR KICKED IN THE FEET OR SHAKEN IN SOME WAY.

BY MR. SHMANDA:

Q. DID YOU ACTUALLY SEE THAT, SIR: THAT THE OFFICER ACTUALLY KICKED HIM IN THE TEETH? (SIC)

A. THAT WAS OFFICER SHERBER, AND HE PLACED HIS WHOLE FOOT ON HIS HEAD. YES, I WAS THERE. ALSO, CONCEPCION WAS THERE. ALSO, WINIFRED GALLANT WAS THERE WHEN THAT

HAPPENED.

Q. OKAY. WHO WAS THE LAST PERSON?

A. WINIFRED GALLANT.

Q. ALL RIGHT.

A. SHE IS A 63-YEAR-OLD

THE COURT: WE DO NOT HAVE TO GO INTO THAT.

THE WITNESS: OKAY. YES, SIR.

BY MR. SHMANDA:

Q. WE ARE JUST TRYING TO TAKE THESE IN ORDER AND MAKE SURE WE HAVE ALL OF THE INFORMATION YOU CAN GIVE US, SIR. THE INCIDENT -- WHEN I ASKED YOU: DID YOU ACTUALLY SEE THAT, WAS ACTUALLY REFERRING TO THE JUNE 30TH INCIDENT AND

OFFICER GERTOFF.

ARE YOU SAYING THAT OFFICER GERTOFF KICKED MR. THOMAS IN THE HEAD ON THAT OCCASION?

A. NO. NO. NO. NO.

Q. NO.

A. OFFICER GERTOFF DID NOT KICK HIM IN THE HEAD.

Q. HE JUST --

A. OFFICER SHERBER KICKED HIM IN THE HEAD.

THE COURT: THE QUESTION WAS TO IDENTIFY THE OFFICER WHO HAD KICKED MR. THOMAS, AND YOU HAVE SAID SHERBER. NOW, YOU HAVE GERTOFF. DID HE OR DID HE NOT KICK MR. THOMAS?

THE WITNESS: WELL, IN THE FEET, BUT NOT IN THE HEAD.

THE COURT: I DON'T CARE WHERE HE KICKED HIM. DID HE KICK HIM?

THE WITNESS: YES, SIR.

BY MR. SHMANDA:

Q. HE KICKED HIM IN THE FEET?

A. YES, SIR.

Q. AND YOU SAW THAT?

A. YES, SIR, I DID.

Q. AND THIS WAS ON JUNE 30TH?

A. YES, SIR, IT WAS.

Q. OKAY. BETWEEN THE HOURS YOU HAVE ALREADY GIVEN US; CORRECT?

A. YES.

Q. OKAY. NOW --

THE COURT: LET ME JUST GET MYSELF STRAIGHT HERE.

MR. SHMANDA: YES, SIR.

THE COURT: IS IT BETWEEN 12:00 MIDNIGHT AND 6:00 A. M. THAT THERE WERE 15 OCCASIONS?

THE WITNESS: YES, SIR.

THE COURT: AND THESE INCLUDED KICKING?

THE WITNESS: YES, SIR.

THE COURT: AND HOW MANY OF THE 15 INVOLVED KICKING?

THE WITNESS: I WOULD SAY FIVE, FIVE OUT OF THAT 15, ONE OUT OF THREE TIMES.

THE COURT: YOU DO NOT MIND, MR. SHMANDA?

MR. SHMANDA: NO, NOT AT ALL, YOUR HONOR.

THE COURT: I AM JUST TRYING TO TAKE SOME NOTES. AND YOU MENTIONED SHAKING. CAN YOU TELL ME HOW MANY OF THE 15 WERE SHAKING, HANDS-ON SHAKING?

THE WITNESS: NO. I CAN ONLY VISUALIZE IT ONCE, BUT IT MIGHT HAVE HAPPENED MORE THAN ONCE.

THE COURT: AND THEN YOU HAVE TALKED ABOUT ASKING.

THE WITNESS: YES, EACH ONE OF THE 15 TIMES.

THE COURT: WELL, HOW MANY OF THE 15 TIMES WERE ASKING WITHOUT ANY HANDS OR FEET ON HIM?

THE WITNESS: WELL, I WOULD SAY MAYBE EIGHT OR NINE, MAYBE EVEN TEN, OF THOSE TIMES.

THE COURT: ALL RIGHT. GO AHEAD, MR. SHMANDA.

MR. SHMANDA: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.

BY MR. SHMANDA:

Q. NOW, WAS THERE YET ANOTHER OFFICER AND AN INCIDENT IN WHICH THE OFFICER PHYSICALLY ABUSED OR ASSAULTED MR. THOMAS THAT YOU WANTED TO TELL US ABOUT?

A. WELL, IT DOES NOT SEEM TO BE IN MY NOTES. THERE WAS ONE BY A METROPOLITAN POLICE OFFICER IN HERE.

Q. ALL RIGHT. IT WAS NOT A PARK POLICE OFFICER?

A. YES. THAT IS REALLY IRRELEVANT.

Q. ALL RIGHT, SIR.

ON THOSE OCCASIONS, SIR, THAT YOU SLEPT IN THE PARK, AGAIN IN THE SUMMER -- WE WILL TRY TO CALL IT THE SUMMER OF 1983, UP UNTIL THE TIME YOU LEFT -- DID MR. THOMAS SLEEP IN THE PARK WOULD HE BE SLEEPING IN THE PARK ON ALL OF THOSE OCCASIONS, AS WELL, IN OTHER WORDS, ON ANY NIGHT THAT YOU HAD SLEPT THERE?

A. NOT ON EVERY NIGHT. THERE WERE SOME TIMES WHEN HE

Continued...

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