USDC Cr. No. 84-3552
THOMAS v. REAGAN
UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA
WILLIAM THOMAS, et al
Plaintiff Pro Se
versus CA 84-3552
Judge Louis Oberdorfer
UNITED STATES, et al Magistrate Arthur Burnett
DEPOSITION FRANK DUNCAN
August 22, 1986
THE CLERK: (Sworn in)
The plaintiff acting pro se.
For the defendants: Michael Martinez
BY: WILLIAM THOMAS, PLAINTIFF PRO SE (T)
THOMAS: Would you state your full name for the record,
Duncan: My name is Frank Elwood Duncan, and I'm 36 years old,
Social Security Number is 369-48-97--
Thomas: No, that's all right. Where are you employed?
Duncan: National Park Service President's Park.
Thomas: How long have you been employed there?
Duncan: Two and a half years.
Thomas: Why is your supervisor?
Duncan: We're getting a new supervisor as of today who's Audrey
Calhoun. The old supervisor, old Park Manager is Carolyn O'Hara.
Thomas: (unclear) (getting items marked)
THE COURT: What was that middle name again, your middle name,
Thomas: These are already in the Administrative Record, so maybe
I won't have to have them marked, if I make reference to the page
THE COURT: If you've got (unclear) administrative record,
then (unclear) for identification (unclear)
Thomas: These are page numbers I-J-4 and I-J-6 and I-J-l2 of the
Administrative Record. Do you recognize them?
Duncan: Yes, I do, I was the one that took the pictures.
Thomas: Now could you say what the pictures depict?
Duncan: The first would be 1071, depicts paint on the sidewalk.
I'm showing the sidewalk as (unclear) what is happening May 9.
MARTINEZ: Just so the Record's clear, Mr. Thomas took these
from the Administrative Record, these are from the Lafayette Park
administrative record of March or April earlier this year.
THE COURT: All right. To be clear which administrative
record we're talking about.
THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
Thomas: Could you say which sidewalk--
Duncan: The (unclear) of 1071 is on Pennsylvania Avenue, Lafayette
Park, right across from the White House.
Thomas: The south side of Lafayette Park?
Thomas: The page number is below the 1071 that you said.
Thomas: Yes. And did you, just let me ask you, you say you took
those pictures, do you know the date that you took them?
Duncan: The date under is 8-25-84.
Thomas: Did you see that paint spilled?
Duncan: This particular paint? No.
Thomas: You don't know how that paint got there? Or do you know
how that paint got there?
Duncan: I just took the picture showing the paint on there, I do
not (unclear) other than some of these, there's more picture that
showed people actually building signs, painting them, which
(unclear) on the sidewalk, you can see the paint being put on the
Thomas: Okay. But in these particular pictures, well, these,
these particular pictures are pictures of large blotches of paint,
Thomas: And were there any similar in size, were there any similar
paint spills that you saw in the park similar in size in--
Duncan: I must say that there were a couple of predominant colors
that were used, and there were certain areas where those colors
were at. And -- in reference to the third page, which is the 1055
- I-J-12, there's approximately 75 feet of blue paint which goes
along the brick, it's quite a large area.
Thomas: Did you see that specifically -- let me show you here,
show you what's been marked as Robert McDaniel Exhibit No. 1,
Deposition -- (unclear) -- Exhibit No. 2, Robert McDaniel Exhibit
No. 2 -- I'm just going to ask a question about where that arrow is
Thomas: Could you read that for me, where the arrow's indicating?
Duncan: It says Associate Regional Director, White House Liaison.
Thomas: This arrow, down here.
Duncan: (unclear) note a line of blue drippings going on the
outside sidewalk (unclear) describing the blue paint shown in the
picture here, starting in the middle and went off to the west side.
Thomas: Did you see that paint spilled?
Thomas: Now, that particular one, (unclear) the line of blue dots
the report notes, and paint on the sidewalk of Lafayette Park in
the first picture that you were looking at, I-J-4, I think it was,
were those the major examples of paint damage that you recall?
Duncan: I would say a significant amount. A lot of this paint was
latex and will wash off. Some of it was enamel, and it's still
Thomas: The blue paint.
Duncan: The blue paint I think is enamel.
Thomas: And that you didn't see spilled.
Duncan: No. (unclear) an awful lot of -- since I am safety
officer coming up to the park, I usually made (unclear) in the
afternoon and I looked for safety problems and noted extreme
amounts of paint on the sidewalk which I had to tell somebody so I
called my supervisor that something was going on which needed to be
addressed or looked at, so in turn, my supervisor asked me to go up
and take these pictures and document such things as were occurring.
Thomas: And that would be Miss O'Hara?
Duncan: That would have been Phil Walsh, my immediate supervisor.
Thomas: So Phil Walsh is the one who instructed you to take--
Duncan: To take pictures and then document the day's, I took the
pictures plus write up what I perceived happened on those days I
found new paint, or (unclear)
Thomas: It seems to me that (unclear) administrative record there
is one wide blotch of paint on the sidewalk on Pennsylvania Avenue
and then a lot of other fairly large blotches of paint on the
sidewalk of Pennsylvania Avenue.
Duncan: This is correct.
Thomas: A lot of paint. Then, in addition to that it seems that
there was one long line of blue drippings, and then there were a
few other small little drippings. Do you recall anything other
than those three categories of paint?
Duncan: There's one grate here that (unclear) painted up on top as
if somebody (unclear) would have to be poured paint on.
Thomas: Would it look like that if it was latex paint and brushes
had been washed out in water -- latex paint had been on brushes and
the brushes had been in water, and then the water had been poured
into the grate?
MARTINEZ: I object, your Honor, I don't know where we're
going with this.
THE COURT: What's the materiality, Mr. Thomas?
Thomas: The materiality is to find out, first I think the Court
heard Officer Haynes' testimony that he knocked over or he was
involved in knocking over the box and paint was spilled. I would
represent that all of that paint on the south sidewalk of Lafayette
Park, which is the only substantial paint damage, I would
represent, was caused by Officer Haynes.
THE COURT: Assuming that's true, what are we establishing,
Thomas: Well, we haven't established too much in that sense in
that I can't find out--
THE COURT: That's why I'm saying, what's the importance of
this whole line of inquiry, Mr. Thomas, (unclear) ten minutes
Thomas: Aside from--
THE COURT: I'm waiting for the connection.
Thomas: Aside from certain evidence
THE COURT: (unclear)
Thomas: I'll just show you these, all these reports that have been
THE COURT: Okay, just for the record, as you look through
(unclear) what the exhibit numbers are so the record will show what
your testimony refers to. Are these being marked for the first
time, Mr. Thomas? Okay, these will be Duncan Deposition Exhibit
Numbers (unclear) on the record (unclear).
Please state for the record what the numbers are so we know what
you're talking about (unclear)
Thomas: Duncan Exhibits 1 through 5, and McDaniel Exhibits 1 and
THE COURT: For identification (unclear)
Duncan: The first one is August twenty--
THE COURT: (unclear) so we know what you're talking about.
McDaniel one or two, or Duncan --
Duncan: Duncan (unclear)
THE COURT: Duncan Exhibit one.
Duncan: This is on August 21, I walked through the park noting
different areas have been painted, the park's also, the bricks have
been defaced or removed are--
Thomas: Okay, let me stop you there. Did you notice anybody
defacing or misplacing the bricks?
Thomas: How -- do you happen to -- first let me ask you this, did
you type these up?
Duncan: No, I did not, my secretary, our secretary for the Parks
did, I didn't. I just hand wrote them out (unclear)
THE COURT: (unclear)
Thomas: Yeah, all, um--
THE COURT: All seven of them?
Thomas: All, yes, all seven of them, whether he typed them up or
THE COURT: Just for a clear record, are you saying that all
seven of these documents were typed from handwritten notes or
memorandums you wrote?
Duncan: All of mine did, yes.
THE COURT: That's what I'm saying, I'm not sure which ones of
those are yours and which ones are somebody else's.
Thomas: If you'll just point out any that aren't yours.
Duncan: Okay, the Exhibit One under McDaniel, I did not write
that, that was my day off (unclear)
THE COURT: All right. What are (unclear) the others?
Duncan: No, the rest of them I hand wrote.
THE COURT: (unclear) interrupting (unclear) so we're not
guessing later on.
Thomas: I appreciate it. The question was, these reports were
generated as a result of instructions given to you by --
Duncan: My boss, Phil Walsh. What was happening here, there was
construction going on of signs, and observance of such things as
bricks being broken up and that, which happens when you put signs
on bricks, and some of these bricks are (unclear) tempered after
being weathered for awhile, (unclear), then you have safety
problems, and as safety officer I was trying to note that we were
having brick problems, safety problems, (unclear) that happen to
have high heels on, (unclear) come walking by and get her foot
caught and (unclear) her ankle or worse, and that's why I brought
Thomas: Brick damage?
Duncan: Brick damage but also (pause), after explaining that to my
boss he requested that I document and photograph what was going on
so that we would have a record of it. Which I did. Each day I
just tried to note if I found something new, I didn't try to go
repeat the same things.
Thomas: Okay. Would you explain that first sentence in Exhibit
Duncan: Exhibit Number One.
Thomas: Exhibit Number One. Duncan.
Duncan: It says, "I observed the old sidewalk along Pennsylvania
Avenue in Lafayette Park is all clear of demonstration signs."
Thomas: What did you mean by the old sidewalk was clear?
Duncan: At the time we were getting ready to go through and brick
the outside, which has now been done.
Thomas: "Was clear of demonstration signs." Had there been
demonstration signs there before?
Duncan: Yes, there was.
Thomas: And that's dated--
Duncan: It's dated August 21, 1984.
Thomas: At that time there were no bricks on the old sidewalk.
Thomas: But there had been demonstration signs on the old sidewalk
prior to August 21?
Case Listing --- Proposition One ---- Peace Park